I have purchased many self-help, self-improvement, and personal financial success programs, and I have been to many investment seminars, some of which really have changed my life for the good in major ways (thank you Tony Robbins). I am not opposed to people selling strategies or education on how to improve you life. However, there is an entire industry that only makes money by selling the hope of a lifestyle improvement, and pretend to have a good or service that the market wants, but in fact have nothing to offer to the market. This happens with a lot of legal (and illegal) referral programs and pyramid payment structures.
For example, years ago I got involved in a company that sold water filters. The filters were sold to the public, but people that were in the company could buy them at a discount and make a profit by selling them to the public. There was nothing inferior about the product I know of, and the higher-up people in the company would have demonstrations about how good the product was. But what do you think they actually did to get us to be involved in selling this product? They showed us how much money we could make by building a “sales force” under us. We would make a percentage off of the products that people below us sold. In fact we would make a small percentage from what the people sold who signed up below the people that we signed up, down to four levels. So the way to really make money in the company was not to sell water filters. It was to get other people below you to join and sell water filters. But get this: you didn’t get the percentage from the water filter sale when the person below sold that filter to the public, but when that person below bought that filter from the company. So in essence, you wouldn’t care whether the person below you actually sold any filters to the public, only that the person below you bought the filter from the company with the intention to sell it to the public (regardless of whether they did or not).
So what was being sold here? Not water filters. In fact, almost all the water filters sold in this company were bought by people in the company, but not ever sold to the public. It didn’t matter to the people higher up in the chain. The filter was bought and they got their commission. What was being sold was the hope of wealth that came from participation in this company. What was being sold was a better lifestyle through getting people below you, and them getting people below them (there was a signup fee), and then have them buy water filters with the intent of selling to the public.
I remember one lady basically bearing her testimony about how the company had improved her life and she cried as she told us about how now she could spend more time with her family. Another guy told about how now he was financially free and not stuck in the corporate world where everyone just stabs you in the back (whereas in this company everyone helps each other succeed). The top guy made videos of him on his yacht telling the rest of us that we could have this, too, if we worked hard enough. Another top person should us her new house on the beach where dolphins could swim in right into her living room, and only a few months earlier she didn’t even have enough money to pay to fix her furnace. What was being sold? Not water filters, but a new lifestyle. And we were all in the company signing people up and buying water filters for that lifestyle. Nearly all the revenue generated in this company was from the hope that people could improve their situations. There was little market demand for the water filters, but huge demand for a better lifestyle.
That company of course is long gone. Once the supply of people who wanted to buy-in to the company dried up, it all fell apart. Some people made money, but mostly from the people who got in at the bottom. I haven't checked, but for the people that made it big, they might as well do the same thing again. It worked for them, and it's not illegal. They just need a different sham good or service to sell, and they can repeat the process, because the demand for that lifestyle is still there.
I don't know enough about the Free Capitalist movement to say whether they are selling a good or a hope for a better lifestyle, but it would be on my list of things to check out. If any company requires the payment of large sums of money to the company in order for you to make money, that's a red flag. That would indicate that the company cannot actually make money from selling just information or education or training, but that the company relies on a constant influx of people "buying-in" with the hope of improving their situations.
Check on what is being sold.
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26 comments:
You said, "If any company requires the payment of large sums of money to the company in order for you to make money, that's a red flag."
Last time I checked, Universities require large sums of money to be paid to them in order for you to make money using the new skills taught, and they do not offer you your money back if you don't feel it was worth your money.
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but did you actually insinuate that network marketing companies should be made illegal? Network marketing is just one way to sell a product. There is no force or deception in the reputable businesses and that's up to you to do your due diligence to avoid. And just because a business fails, does not mean that it is dishonest. As for myself, I don't think I would participate in a network marketing company unless I really believed in the product, would use it myself, and felt that it would be received in the marketplace. But even if you are getting into it 'for the business' it's just as valid a choice, and it is up to the individual to decide whether to be involved or not. As Austin Powers would say, "It's freedom, baby, yeah!"
"Last time I checked, Universities require large sums of money to be paid to them in order for you to make money using the new skills taught, and they do not offer you your money back if you don't feel it was worth your money."
Ah. You don't make any money with the university. Period. You pay tuition for education, not a return on your money. Their only product is education, not an investment. A better analogy is if you were going to be hired as an employee somewhere and the company said, "before you get your first paycheck, you have to pay us $5000." How many people would go for that?
"And, correct me if I'm wrong, but did you actually insinuate that network marketing companies should be made illegal? "
I doubt you read this post either. Some network marketing companies just have sham products or services to do a ponzi scheme. You have to find out if that's the case. In my own example, there was a product, there was some(little) market demand for it, but the company got people involved by focusing on the lifestyle you could get by joining the company. The sham product was just enough to prove that they did have something of value, so it was at least in theory to make money from the product. But really it was the ponzi scheme that they tried to get you to do.
re: "Ah. You don't make any money with the university. Period. You pay tuition for education, not a return on your money. Their only product is education, not an investment."
Are you saying money is the only measure of value? I felt like the money that I spent on my education was an investment. I imagine that there are some people that get educated just to be educated, but the majority of people in college are there as an investment to increase there value in the future.
Me: "Ah. You don't make any money with the university. Period. You pay tuition for education, not a return on your money. Their only product is education, not an investment."
You: "Are you saying money is the only measure of value? I felt like the money that I spent on my education was an investment. I imagine that there are some people that get educated just to be educated, but the majority of people in college are there as an investment to increase there value in the future."
Uh, no. I'm saying that "you don't make any money with the university." The only service the university provides is education, not a financial return on your tuition. You don't pay $1000 in tuition and the university gives you back $1200 at the end of the year.
"Uh, no. I'm saying that "you don't make any money with the university." The only service the university provides is education, not a financial return on your tuition. You don't pay $1000 in tuition and the university gives you back $1200 at the end of the year."
So what you are saying is, if you pay $1000 in tuition, you dont value the education more than the $1000? I did, and some semesters I felt that I probably did get the $1200 in value for the $1000 that I gave up.
Free Capitalists value more than just money. We make exchanges of one thing of value for another, that is the essence of capitalism. Money is certainly one form of currency that we value, and I was willing to exchange it for something that I perceived to be of greater value than the money I had. I have taken classes I have felt were a good investment, and I have taken classes that I felt were a bad investments, but regardless I still had to pay first, and didnt get a refund for the ones I didnt value as much.
"So what you are saying is, if you pay $1000 in tuition, you dont value the education more than the $1000? I did, and some semesters I felt that I probably did get the $1200 in value for the $1000 that I gave up.
Free Capitalists value more than just money. We make exchanges of one thing of value for another, that is the essence of capitalism."
Dude, you make me laugh. You are trying to turn this into a discussion about the non-monetary value of an education.
Following me on this. You pay $1000 in tuition to a university. Do they give you your money back, plus interest? No they don't. They don't give you any money back.
You are just trying to shift the discussion to something again.
Nice little sermon on how Free Capitalist value things beside money, etc., etc. Ha ha. As if that's even what we were talking about.
"Dude, you make me laugh. You are trying to turn this into a discussion about the non-monetary value of an education."
Dude, I am trying to show the monetary value of an education.
"Following me on this. You pay $1000 in tuition to a university. Do they give you your money back, plus interest? No they don't. They don't give you any money back."
Follow me in this I pay $1000 in tuition to a university they exchange $1000 or more in knowledge/education, I take that knowledge/education and go and exchange that knowledge/education for $1000/month in the form of dollars, which ends up being a way better investment than anything I could have done with the original $1000.
If you cannot see monetary value in anything but money/dollars, the free capitalists and you will be talking past each other all day long.
Jason, stop. The value of an education is not in question. I am not disagreeing about that. That's just not what is even being discussed. It is immaterial.
The fact remains that people need to be suspicious when a company "sells" investment ideas or strategies but it requires you to fork over a lot of money. It's a red flag. Not necessarily something bad, but very well may be. It's something to check on.
Don't try to to create a different debate.
Aye!
I'm going to ignore the completely brain off ideas you use: like that it's a "fact" that people "need" to be suspicious, and that somehow large sums of money imply fraud.
The Free Capitalist movement is not about selling investment ideas or strategies. People who have investment strategies that have worked for them have every right, in fact I would say a responsibility, to make sure they are compensated well for teaching them. This does happen in conjunction with the Free Capitalist movement, but it is not what the Free Capitalist movement does or stands for.
You critique the fact that the movement claims to be "not about the money" and then refute that claim because they promote their ideas by demonstrating the blessings in their life and the comfort they enjoy. Perhaps your motivation is more about envy of their things and less about seeking the truth about what they teach?
I am a student of American Founders University. I am not a partner, founding member, or in any way other than my student status and being a believer in the cause, associated with the management of the Free Capitalist movement. I am gaining tremendous value from what they teach.
I am seeing an incredible similarity between your comments, as they relate to the Free Capitalist Project and Rick Koerber; and anti-mormon blogs and critiques as they relate to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and Joseph Smith. Would you not do more good for yourself and others to honestly engage in trying discover the "fruits" of the project, than by anonymously criticizing it?
There are principles found in Moroni 10 which apply to all truth, not just the Book of Mormon. You must allow the teachings to enter your heart. As Alma teaches, you must desire to believe to allow the seed to be planted, and not cast it out because of your unbelief. How about you try that?
spiffy, does who I am change my arguments? No. So then why do you care.
I think my blog is more like Alma and Amulek responding to Zeezrom and the Amalikiahites than it being like an "anti-Mormon" blog. But nice try with the attempt to associate me with them.
"You must allow the teachings to enter your heart. As Alma teaches, you must desire to believe to allow the seed to be planted, and not cast it out because of your unbelief."
Yeah, I think we are all seeing the fruit that is being born.
I care because if you are not willing to take responsibility for what you say, then you lack integrity and the discussion will go no further.
Alma and Amaleki did not seek out and criticize anyone, Zeezrom sought out Alma and Amaleki. Who is seeking out and criticizing whom? You or Rick Koerber?
I do see the fruit that is being born. I see my life changing for the better, increased real wealth in my life, a closer relationship with my savior, wife, children, parents, siblings...
To what fruits do you refer?
I meant Amulek, sorry.
"Alma and Amaleki did not seek out and criticize anyone, Zeezrom sought out Alma and Amaleki."
They were preaching to them to begin with. But it is irrelevant to the quality or purpose of this blog. That fact that someone does a critique on something implies nothing about whether the thing being critiques is good or bad, whether the person doing the critique is good or bad. That's why I wrote the short explanation at the top of the blog. I am engaging in the discussion about all this.
"To what fruits do you refer?"
To the results of the Free Capitalist movement in helping people improve in their financial health. ("It's more than that, it's..." yeah I know, but it revolves around finances).
"They were preaching to them to begin with. But it is irrelevant to the quality or purpose of this blog. That fact that someone does a critique on something implies nothing about whether the thing being critiques is good or bad, whether the person doing the critique is good or bad. That's why I wrote the short explanation at the top of the blog. I am engaging in the discussion about all this."
Yet you aren't willing to take personal responsibility for what you post. You criticize anonymously. Why?
They are helping me to improve in my financial health. It is part of their mission. Anyone who says otherwise is either deceived or deceiving. However, financial health is merely a symptom of deeper issues. Focusing on financial health is hacking at leaves rather than roots of the problem. True prosperity has to do with real wealth, not material riches. That is the message about finances from the Free Capitalist, not "have really nice cars."
"To what fruits do you refer?"
To the results of the Free Capitalist movement in helping people improve in their financial health."
Again what are you talking about? Do you have some proof that the people involved with the free capitalist movement are not improving their financial situations? Do you know how many millionaires have been created by being involved with the movement? Do you know how many people have been enabled to quit their jobs working for somebody else by being a part of the movement? If you dont have any information about any of this I dont know how you can make the argument.
The Primer on page 15 says "The first general order of civic service performed by the Project is to help its individual members become self-reliant, economically independent, and ultimately free"
spiffy: "I care because if you are not willing to take responsibility for what you say, then you lack integrity and the discussion will go no further."
And yet the discussion continues.
You sure are anxious to know who I am. I think the reason you and others would like to know who I am is to try to "find" something out about me, in essence do an ad hominem. You want to discover why I "really" have this blog. Maybe there's something I've said about myself that you can't point out to be false. Or maybe I'm part of some organization that you can attack. Or maybe I've got my own problems that you can point out and then try to get people to ignore this blog based on my bad reputation.
But there's nothing like that for me (but that wouldn't stop people from trying to insinuate things). I don't want this critique to become a big discussion of who am I, or whether I can be trusted.
Like I posted earlier, I am only going off of Free Capitalist info that is publicly available to anyone. I'm not going after anyone personally or anything they do outside the public arena.
I don't need to go after anyone to prove my points. I don't need to go after anyone's past, or what they did in private, or what they've done outside of the Free Capitalist movement. Have you noticed that? Have you noticed how I address what is taught in public? How I go after ideas, not people? I don't need to.
"I think the reason you and others would like to know who I am is to try to "find" something out about me"
Again with the conspiracy theories. Principles govern, and if something is true its still true regardless of who you are or what your past is. If you really believe this I question weather you have read anything on freecapitalist.com or not. There are plenty of people who are critical of the message on the site, who do not remain anonymous and you will not see name calling on the free capitalist side at least.
"And yet the discussion continues."
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt. Don't worry; this will be my last post. You have demonstrated exactly what many people in the Free Capitalist movement assumed about you.
"You sure are anxious to know who I am."
Actually, I couldn't care less who you are. I am mostly just you to take personal responsibility for what you write, and shed your anonymity.
"I think the reason you and others would like to know who I am is to try to "find" something out about me, in essence do an ad hominem."
You mean kind of like that statement?
"You want to discover why I "really" have this blog. Maybe there's something I've said about myself that you can't point out to be false. Or maybe I'm part of some organization that you can attack. Or maybe I've got my own problems that you can point out and then try to get people to ignore this blog based on my bad reputation."
I see this as evidence that you are not writing from the neutral bystander position that you claim. You have begun assuming the worst of those involved with the Free Capitalist movement.
"But there's nothing like that for me (but that wouldn't stop people from trying to insinuate things). I don't want this critique to become a big discussion of who am I, or whether I can be trusted."
The fact that you are not willing to take personal responsibility for your comments is evidence that you can't be trusted.
Whether or not you can be trusted has no DIRECT bearing on the discussion you claim to want to start, but it does have a bearing on whether it really is the type of discussion you want to have.
If you start out mistrusting those in the movement, you can't very well just expect them to trust that you are sincere and genuine in your attempt to start a discussion about the movement. If you truly want to have an honest discussion and critique the Free Capitalist movement, go to the Free Capitalist site and start that discussion. Granted there will be the fanatics who will fail to turn their brain on, but I have found that honest questions, asked in a respectful and genuine way will be responded with respectful and genuine answers, no matter where you do them, but especially on the Free Capitalist discussion forum. Your questions have been many things, but respectful and genuine, are not their strong suit. Your insistence on anonymity already puts your sincerity in question. The pre-supposed assumptions you have about the movement make the respectful part a challenge. Try re-thinking your motivations and be sincere about them and you will find the same reciprocated.
"Like I posted earlier, I am only going off of Free Capitalist info that is publicly available to anyone. I'm not going after anyone personally or anything they do outside the public arena."
I'm sure that's verifiably true, however tabloids and other hack journalists seeking for a sensational scoop can make the same claim.
"I don't need to go after anyone to prove my points. I don't need to go after anyone's past, or what they did in private, or what they've done outside of the Free Capitalist movement. Have you noticed that? Have you noticed how I address what is taught in public? How I go after ideas, not people? I don't need to."
No, I haven't noticed that at all actually. I've noticed some attempts to be somewhat civil in your responses, but you are still questioning the motivations of the members, rather than talking about the ideas they promote. Kind of like how you just now assumed that the people in the Free Capitalist movement would dig up dirt or invent it about you if they knew who you were.
You still have not responded to my response to your critique of the 13 principles. All of your responses to me have been defending why you are doing this anonymously, rather than keeping to the discussion you claim to want.
This original post, "What's Being Sold" for example, is not about critiquing the principles or ideas taught by Rick Koerber or any in the Free Capitalist movement, but about an assumption of what is "the real motivation" behind the Free Capitalist movement based on superficial assumptions because of the cars they like to drive. Did you go to the event where those pictures were taken? Do you know the purpose of the event and what was taught there? judging by your comments ... obviously not. It was a free event, open to anyone who was willing to send an RSVP so that they had some idea of how much food to provide. It seems you are only willing to take a selection of what is available to the public - that which you can spin in a negative way about the movement. All of this is evidence that you have an angle - a hidden agenda. What that agenda is, I really couldn't care less. That you have one, and are not willing to disclose it, is an essential piece of information, based out of a fear of loss, and scarcity thinking. Simply put, I don't believe you. The reason I came and read your blog, then posted on here was to give you the benefit of the doubt and take you at your word, giving you the opportunity to show the sincerity which was put into question by your anonymity.
Jason Wrote: Again what are you talking about? Do you have some proof that the people involved with the free capitalist movement are not improving their financial situations? Do you know how many millionaires have been created by being involved with the movement? Do you know how many people have been enabled to quit their jobs working for somebody else by being a part of the movement? If you dont have any information about any of this I dont know how you can make the argument.
Outside of the original people who Rick taught and become millionaires, who else do you know who’s become a millionaire because of the teachings of the Free Capitalist organization?
I personally know of two people who are in worse financial shape after becoming Preferred Buyers. Their investment homes are in foreclosure and their credit scores which were 700+ are now in the crapper. Oh, yeah, they were also members of the FC movement. I know of two other Free Capitalist members who had to take out bankruptcy in the last six months because their 3% a month (or whatever they were getting) dried up last year.
I’m not putting blame on Rick, you, or anyone else for their problems but just asking Jason to back up his claims. If the Free Capitalist project is dedicated to improving people’s financial lives, where’s the proof of this. All I hear are testimonies on how they helped people see things differently. I would think the FC website would be full of stories of millionaires. Everyone I know who has takes courses from AFU, or FranklinSquires University as it was called back in the day, seems to be in worse financial shape then they were 1, 2, or even 5 years ago.
I really believe that by your fruits you shall know the worth of an organization. All the fruit I’ve seen has been pretty rotten.
re: "I personally know"
OK Mr. Anonymous I believe you.
Jason,
Oh this is too much. You blogger profile is hidden. Maybe I should create one and hide my idenity then call out other from posting anonymously. Having a hidding blogger identity is just like posting anonymously.
But hey, how about you getting all those FreeCapitalist millionaries to post their success stories on this comments section. Funny how my requests for success stories are never answered.
Jason Troy Welch
Kyle, tx
210-693-0106
If you would like a biography, I would be happy to provide it to you.
My profile is on freecapitalist.com
re: "But hey, how about you getting all those FreeCapitalist millionaries to post their success stories on this comments section. Funny how my requests for success stories are never answered."
I still havent seen your "friends" posts. There are success stories on freecapitalist.com. Why would they come here to this site to do it when there are like 4 people even reading it?
spiffy, I am not neutral. This is a critique. And the pictures of the cars are relevant because it is inconsistent with the claims of the movement. And those pictures were put on the public site.
And look, no one has to trust me. That would be just taking my word for it based on who I am. This is another reason why everything I discuss is available to anyone else. I hold no secrets that people have to take my word on.
I am giving my opinions and showing the writings or audio or pictures that contributed to my opinions. When I hear it said repeatedly on the radio show that "it's not about the money" and then I see shots of luxury cars for many of the pictures on the front page fo the website, I think, "hey, that's not consistent. Just what exactly is being sold here?" And then I give my opinion, and show my experience with a different company that seems to have some parallels.
I do try to fair, but I'm not neutral. I don't try to misreprent what is said or taught (don't need to). But I will give my opinion on whatever I see or hear that is publically available.
I am preparing a post on how Ayn Rand's ideas have been fairly influential in the Free Capitlist movement. It won't be a neutral evaluation either. But anyone else can get books by Ayn Rand and can read or listen to the Free Capitalist stuff and see if they agree with Ayn Rand and if they agree that Ayn Rand's ideas don't largely influence the Free Capitalist movement. I'm not doing a news article that is unbiased. I am giving a critique.
oh, wow. I just read through the "FreeCapitalist Handbook" (http://primer.freecapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/FCPHandbook6-3.pdf). I'm sorry you guys. This is suprising to me. There are several levels of "Memberships" that cost you money to attain, and which require you to bring in other people. I can't keep up with all this. I've already got a huge queue of articles in the works.
"Basic Membership
dues for the FreeCapitalist Project are $29.97 per month"
and
" 250 PQ Experience Points
Black FreeCapitalist membership lapel pin.
Member becomes eligible to sponsor new members.
Bonus: Earn $25 for each sponsored member who completes the New Member Quest."
here's the "Gold Qwest Level requirements:
"⇒ Register at the FreeCapitalist website and pay the $100 quest fee.
⇒ Purchase and register for the Intro to Self-Reliance course at AFU (Tuition is $249.99).
⇒ Purchase and register for the Introduction to the 13 Principles of Prosperity course at American
Founders University (Tuition is $999.95).
⇒ Sponsor 10 Producer Quest participants (w/5 Gold Rank or higher).
⇒ Coach 3 Producer Quest participants to complete the GQ sponsorship requirements.
⇒ Complete the quest by;
Having your sponsor or local forum leader verify your quest steps,
Successfully submitting a completed Quest Stewardship Report and,
Being recognized in a local “Faire Action” forum meeting."
And later at higher levels:
"Quest participants are eligible to receive a $250 bonus for each business that makes a $1,000
donation to the FreeCapitalist Foundation™ and offers a discount on their products or services or
some other substantial benefit to members of the Project"
I'm sorry to break this to you all...this is how pyramid schemes operate. I wasn't even aware of this aspect of the Free Capitalist Project before now.
I'll write an article on this, but here's a heads up.
I really feel bad for some of you caught up in this. I'm not mad at anyone. More dissappointed that people, who should know better, fall for this, and then argue with me about it.
I posted a response on www.freecapitalist.com
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