The title of “Capitalist” gets different responses from different people. Why is that? Either people have differing ideas of what the word means, or they have differing opinions on whether it is good or bad. Let’s start with a definition of capital:
Capital is the stock of accumulated goods, or an asset.
An asset is any item of economic value.
So then capitalism is an economic system that enables and fosters individuals and businesses to accumulated goods with economic value, or assets.
Not Always Been the Case in History
Individuals have not always been able to accumulate assets throughout history. Under pharaohs and kings and lords of the manor, individuals could accumulate only small amounts of assets for their own personal use. For example, a man could own a shovel and other hand tools for working the soil, but he couldn’t own the land itself. In many countries, the king was sovereign and was the only one who actually owned anything. Everyone else was granted the use of his possessions, his assets, at his will and pleasure. At one level, the people were able to buy and sell and exchange so they were engaging in a market and even capitalism, but only with meager personal items of little value. At a higher level, the king was the only one with assets and was restricting anyone else from accumulating any meaningful level of assets.
What makes Capitalism Different
Capitalism enables individuals to accumulate assets that can be bought and sold in a market free from control to anyone who wishes to participate. The price does not change depending on who you are. Assets are transferable from one person to another through exchange. Exchange delineates the change in ownership. What can be owned, is at the heart of capitalism, since anything that can be owned and exchanged is an asset.
Under Capitalism, things can be broken down into separate parts for exchange. For example, with many types of bonds, the bond purchaser gives money to an institution and receives back a note promising to repay the money plus interest. The two parts of the bond can be separated into two separate assets: the promise to repay the original amount, and the promise to pay interest. The bond purchaser can actually sell these two parts separately in the market. Why would anyone want to sell a note on the repayment of just the original amount? Maybe they need the money now. Maybe they have a great business plan and could use that money it to make even more. Most likely the price of this note would be for less than what will be paid back ($950 for a note that will pay $1000 in a year, for example). And the note for the interest payment will go for some positive amount, depending on what other interest-paying opportunities exist in the market to choose from. These types of sales happen all the time in the bond market, which is much larger than the stock market. What is different about capitalism is that it allows individuals to separate things of economic value into separate assets (if they wish) and sell those to anyone else in a market without interference
What Can Be Broken Down Into Assets?
What has economic value? The answer is: anything that affects you economically. If you are acting rationally and voluntarily, you only buy something if you value the thing you bought more than retaining the money for it. If you buy a car for $10,000, you valued that car more than your $10,000 (otherwise you wouldn’t have bought it). The reverse is true for the seller. But how much do you value your job? Less than your salary and benefits (otherwise you would quit). Perhaps you don’t like your job, but you like your salary more than not having a job with no salary, so you don’t quit. What about your life? Does your life have a price tag? To you, probably not. You probably do not consider your life as an asset that can be bought, sold, or exchanged for any price. It is outside of the market and should not be included in it. Yet, you probably have life insurance, but you probably have life insurance not as really insurance on the value of your life, but rather insurance on your productivity, or income that you would be making had you not died. Can you turn your future productivity into an asset? Can someone else?
There is a famous example of a company placing a price tag on human life. When Ford made the Pinto, at a certain point they realized that with the current design of the car, that a certain number of people would be killed in collisions. They also knew that they could improve the design of the car so that fewer people would die, but that would cost them more to make the car. They estimated what the financial cost to the company would be for having to pay settlements to the families of those that were killed in collisions. They decided not to improve the design because the increase in the cost for the improved design was greater than the savings they would receive by not having to pay as much in settlements to the families of those killed in collisions. The most profitable route for them was to use the inferior design, even though they knew that this would actually cause more people to die. It can be argued that Ford was a business and its purpose was to make money. It was an economic entity that made decisions based on economic values. They weren’t actually killing anybody. There was no intent to harm people. Yet they would be causing more people to die because of economic considerations. They separated the cost of manufacturing the car from the cost of settlements to families. They could assign a dollar amount to each and compared the two. They actually turned the cost of settlements into an asset (negative in this case, or a liability). It wasn’t human life per se that had the price tag, but how the loss of that life would economically affect the company. So although they made a purely economic decision, it had very real implications of things that most people would consider outside the economic realm.
Distortions Can Occur
I you look at everything as an asset, distortions in values can occur. If you look at a business, you can identify goods and trademarks and intellectually property, all of which is ownable and transferable. But what if you look at, say, your church congregation, or your neighborhood organization, or even your family? What assets do you see? Should you see any assets? What about a school, or a city? What assets does a country have? I would argue that there are limits to what should even be considered an asset. I consider it exploitation when one tries to extract assets from people or places that should not be considered assets in the first place. For example, human life (or more correctly, the economic impact from the loss of human life), should not be considered an asset (no one can own it, it can’t be transferred, etc). Other things like “town character” and genetic code should not be considered assets that can be owned or transferred. But when everything that has economic impact (which is just about everything) is “assetized” and owned and sold and government upholds the sale, then we have Capitalism taken to the extreme.
Capitalism can cause people to have a distorted view of what should be an asset, and what should not. Capitalism can cause things to be divided into separate parts things that should not be divided. If you look at everything as being composed of separate assets that can be sold in the market, you will have a distorted view of things. Your "perspective" changes (and according to Principle #4 determines action). The notion of “value” of things actually changes and takes on an economic representation. Look over the 13 Principles of Prosperity and note how everything takes on an economic slant, even those things that should be outside of the economic realm.
“God Is a Capitalist”
Rick Koerber says he made the subtitle of one of his books, “If God is A Capitalist, Why are Most Christians Socialists?” (see video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1oyZazXZxY). Koerber defines a capitalist in a way he claims is the “classical” definition: that capitalists are “people who value freedom and liberty, who recognize the principles in the Constitution of the United States, and the revolution begun, but not yet finished, as the ideal the prototype for living lives worth living. It’s more than just investing. Capitalists live much differently to the chagrin of many in society. As the backbone in society, as the least appreciated. Capitalists are the world’s producers.” I find no basis in this definition of a capitalist. Capitalism says nothing about the Constitution or how one should live his life.
At another time on his radio show (Dec 24, 2007) he says, “A capitalist is someone who refuses to allow the idea in their mind that force or deception is ever appropriate in human relations.” Koerber misses a crucial point: Capitalism can cause distortions in values without using any force. Capitalism is only about a system that allows things of economic value to be turned into assets and be accumulated. It has no comment on how that should be done or whether that should be done. So, no, I don’t think God is a capitalist, unless we ascribe some extra meanings to the term. But I think this is an attempt to ascribe a morality to an economic system that is amoral by definition. Capitalism itself cannot be good or bad, only what people do with it. And if there is a confusion of terms (“capitalist” mean something morally good to me but neither good or bad to you), then I can says that acts done under “capitalism” are good. Then what Ford did with the Pinto was good (because they were being capitalists). Then considering most everything as assets that can be separated and sold, is good. Even God becomes a capitalist Himself.
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15 comments:
The members of the Free Capitalist Project subscribes to a much different definition of 'Capitalism' than most of the world. We subscribe to much the same definition as Ayn Rand who stated that Capitalism was the only moral economic system. Reduced to it's essentials, Capitalism is really nothing more or less than freedom, so when you make a statement such as 'Capitalism to the extreme', I have to ask, "can you have such a thing as too much freedom?" I would submit that you cannot. Freedom does not mean that you have the right to do anything you wish. Nobody has the right to infringe on the rights of others. Enough on that.
I would like to address your statements about Ford and it's economic decisions of whether or not to improve a certain car they manufactured. We all make such decisions everyday of our lives. We all weigh the risks and benefits of certain actions and make choices. Walter Williams explains this idea extremely well in his article entitled "Costs vs Benefits" (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/WalterEWilliams/2008/02/20/costs_vs_benefits). In it, he uses the analogy of the speed limit. If we really wanted to, we could reduce the number of people killed on the freeways and other roads, by setting a nationwide speed limit of 15mph. This would be a great benefit, yes? But what would be the cost? You see, we all have to make these kinds of decisions everyday, and Ford is no less immune to it than the rest of us. It still comes down to freedom. If you want a safer car, pay more money. If you value a cheaper car, you get what you pay for. Capitalism is freedom, and as the greatest advocate of freedom, God is a Capitalist.
"The members of the Free Capitalist Project subscribes to a much different definition of 'Capitalism' than most of the world."
I know. This is a common problem I am finding with people in the Free Capitalist movement. You might as well just invent another word, rather then just changing an existing one.
"Reduced to it's essentials, Capitalism is really nothing more or less than freedom,"
No it is not. Just like "banking" isn't freedom. "Investing" isn't freedom. "Capitalism" is not freedom. I doubt that you read my post.
"'Capitalism to the extreme', I have to ask, "can you have such a thing as too much freedom?" "
See there you go. You try to redefine a word (Capitalism), and then take it to a logical conclusion. Since Capitalism does not mean freedom, you can't try to say that you can't have too much Capitalism (because it means the same thing as freedom). That is such a confusion of terms. You are trying to say that two different terms (the word "Capitalism" and the word "freedom") are the same concept. They are not. Then you try to use one of the terms in a statement that I will agree with ("you can't have too much freedom") and try make it apply to too much 'Capitalism.' Doesn't work. Nice try.
"In it, he uses the analogy of the speed limit. If we really wanted to, we could reduce the number of people killed on the freeways and other roads, by setting a nationwide speed limit of 15mph."
You make my point. We are using the force of government to curtail something that would not be done if left alone to people making their own cost-benefit analysis. Why is there a speed limit law? because without it, some people would drive faster than other people want them to (because other people's lives are part of the person's cost-benefit analysis, and externality). So we pass a law. This is an example of the free market (driving as fast as you want) being curtailed, I think legitimately. It is not an example of a free market or a business voluntarily making the right decision (not that this never happens, just that the example you gave is not one).
Who is arguing definitions of words now? Aaron was perfectly clear on what he meant, and was sure to mention that yes we use a "much different definition of 'Capitalism' than most of the world."
When somebody says "when I use this word this is what I mean", The argument of "no its not" is not an argument at all.
re: "This is a common problem I am finding with people in the Free Capitalist movement. You might as well just invent another word, rather then just changing an existing one."
The members of the Free Capitalist movement always try to make sure we are on the same page as the other people when we are making arguments. If we are using the same words with different definitions it will not be a productive conversation.
re: "without it, some people would drive faster than other people want them to"
I am sure there are advocates of the 15 MPH speed limit, why is that a less legitimate position than the 65 MPH advocates? Who gets to decide the cost-benefit analysis?
"When somebody says "when I use this word this is what I mean", The argument of "no its not" is not an argument at all."
Ah, Jason. Your missing why this is a problem in the Free Capitalist movement: they use one meaning of the word one time, and another meaning of the word another time. They "change the definition", then use a different definition another time. Like when Koerber reads the church counsel to stay out of debt (which means "a financial obligation or money owed") and then says if you have any equity in you house "you owe no debt on that house." C'mon, that's disingenuous. It's an attempt to change definitions so you can give the counsel a different meaning.
Or like what that other guy did, try to say that "capitalism' and "freedom" were the same thing and therefore "can you have enough freedom?"
It's not simply that you all use "different" definitions. It's that you use the definition to suit your needs at the time.
"(which means "a financial obligation or money owed")"
Show me where the church defines debt as this.
Pay Thy Debt, and Live Ezra Taft Benson. Engisn. June 1987
Debt
Since the early days of the Church, the Lord's prophets have repeatedly warned against the bondage of debt. One of the great dangers of debt is the interest that accompanies it. When it is necessary to incur debt, such as a reasonable amount to purchase a modest home or to complete one's education, the debt should be repaid as quickly as possible.
Source: LDS.org
Click Additional Informaiton for more info.
Me: "(which means "a financial obligation or money owed")"
You: "Show me where the church defines debt as this."
You're not going to find a place where the church "defines" debt, but you will find many uses of debt with this meaning. The anonymous poster(s) above provided some information from lds.org.
It's quite remarkable that you would challenge the church's use and understanding of the word "debt."
Here are definitions of the word "debt"
"An amount owed to a person or organization for funds borrowed. Debt can be represented by a loan note, bond, mortgage or other form stating repayment terms and, if applicable, interest requirements. These different forms all imply intent to pay back an amount owed by a specific date, which is set forth in the repayment terms."
http://www.investorwords.com/1313/debt.html
"1. Something owed, such as money, goods, or services.
2.
a. An obligation or liability to pay or render something to someone else.
b. The condition of owing"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/debt
"An amount of money borrowed and owed by one party to another."
http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/debt
Nowhere does anyone use or understand "debt" to mean liabilities being greater that asset values, except in the Free Capitalist movement.
I even gave an example in the scriptures where the Lord tells Joseph Smith, "Pay the debt thou hast contracted with the printer. Release thyself from bondage." (D&C 19:35). That use is consist with the definition of "something owed." the Lord didn't say, "Increase you asset values or accumulate more assets so that you assets values exceed you liabilities."
Furthermore, I don't see how someone could claim that the counsel from the church to "avoid debt" means "avoiding having your asset values less than your liabilities." What "avoid debt" means is "avoid owing people money."
And like I said earlier, saying that the people in the Free Capitalist movement all understand the word "debt" the same way is no defense. That just means there is a general misunderstanding of the word "debt" in the Free Capitalist movement. But also, when discussing what the church says about debt, you have to use their definition in the discussion. You can't read a quote from the church, then use your own (erroneous) definition and claim to be following church counsel when you are adhering to the erroneous definition, but not the church's definition.
It is not following church counsel to avoid debt by having "your asset values exceed your liabilities." You are following church counsel when you are avoiding owing someone else money.
"It's quite remarkable that you would challenge the church's use and understanding of the word "debt."
If the Church doesnt define Debt how am I challenging anything?
Show me where you could not apply Ricks definition of debt to any of the quotes you use.
"counsel from the church to "avoid debt" means "avoiding having your asset values less than your liabilities." What "avoid debt" means is "avoid owing people money."
Even if everybody conformed to your definition of debt the church still has a very different veiw of debt than you do.
The quote you use from Marvin J Ashton, leaves exemptions.
Guide to Family Finance
Marvin J. Ashton
"With the exception of buying a home, paying for education, or making other vital investments, avoid debt and the resulting finance charges. The use of multiple credit cards significantly adds to the risk of excess debt."
And here is an Ensign article that talks very specifically about debt. And is a very different view than you have presented the church counsel to be.
I know that the members of the Church are counseled to be financially prepared to face “hard times,” the same way we are told to have a year’s supply of basic foods on hand. Does this counsel mean that all debt is categorically bad?
Robert F. Bohn, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, Apr. 1975, 20–21
Robert F. Bohn, Instructor of Family Economics, Brigham Young University
Debt is intrinsically neither good nor bad; it is amoral (neutral) because, by definition, it is only a financial “tool.” How a Latter-day Saint uses the “tool” determines whether the effects on his life are “good” or “bad.”
One evening while an active Church member was having dinner with me, he asked me what I thought about credit cards. Before responding, I asked him about his own experience with charge cards. He answered quickly, explaining that he recently tore up and threw away all of his credit cards because he and his wife had repeatedly purchased impulsively too many items on credit due to its convenience. Accordingly, they found themselves continually burdened with monthly payments and paying a great deal in finance charges. When I was asked again for my opinion, I agreed that if having the cards was too much of a temptation to over-extend themselves, then perhaps they should not have the credit cards. However, does this mean that all Latter-day Saints should avoid the use of debt instruments like credit cards?
As was the case in the above illustration, a financial “tool” like debt can become a cruel taskmaster when used improperly. However, if a “tool” is used appropriately, it can also be beneficial to the user. For example, when traveling, many people minimize the amount of cash and travelers’ checks carried by having a widely accepted credit card. Likewise, in many situations a personal check (and sometimes even cash) is not acceptable; a common example of this is the rental of a car, where a credit card is typically most acceptable. A credit card can also be very helpful in accounting for and paying business expenses; then, when the monthly statement comes, the employee can easily receive reimbursement from the company without previously having to use his own money. Some people use credit cards for their personal bills and expenses to minimize the use of checks by writing only one check for the entire amount at the end of the month. If one understands how to use this “tool” effectively, he can enjoy the positive aspects and, in many cases, completely avoid the negative.
Other kinds of debt instruments also have their good and bad sides. On the one hand, obtaining excessive loans for unnecessary purchases often causes marital discord because of the resulting financial burden. On the other hand, the wise use of a loan enables thousands of Latter-day Saints to purchase homes and assists many students in obtaining an education. Speaking at Brigham Young University in 1962, Elder Ezra Taft Benson summarized what the Church has been teaching:
“Our inspired Church leaders have always urged Latter-day Saints to get out of debt, live within our means, and pay as we go. …
“Now I do not mean to say that all debt is bad. Of course not. Sound business debt and reasonable debt for education is one of the elements of growth. Sound mortgage credit is a real help to a family that must borrow for a home.” (Church News, March 17, 1962, p. 13.)
The creation of debt also provides income for many prudent Latter-day Saints. For example, every time we open a savings account to earn deposit interest, we create a debt (liability) for the savings institution. When we purchase bonds to earn interest income, we become creditors to the company from whom we purchased the bonds; the company is willing to go into debt to the bondholders in order to increase business and profits. Each time we save our money by purchasing government savings bonds we cause the government to increase its debt. Debt is a basic financial tool of our economy and needs to be understood so that we can enjoy its positive aspects while avoiding the misery associated with the negative.
Almost any practice or principle taken to an extreme can have “bad” effects. For example, saving is typically considered a good practice; but is also basically an amoral financial tool—neither good nor bad. The following is an example of how even saving, utilized to an extreme, can have bad effects:
If everybody in the country stopped spending and only saved their money, then goods and services would not be purchased. If goods and services are not purchased, then businesses stop producing. If companies stop producing, then workers are laid off. If workers are laid off, they have no money to spend or to save. This cycle would continue until a severe depression would destroy the economy. The cause? The extreme use of a seemingly “good” financial tool—savings!
In summary, debt can be likened to a saw in that the saw is neither good nor bad—it is a tool. If properly used, the tool can be used to construct beautiful homes; if foolishly played with, the tool can cut off arms and hurt lives. The challenge to us as Latter-day Saints is to learn the appropriate use of a wide variety of financial “tools” so that we are properly prepared when seeking the Lord’s counsel in confirming our financial decisions.
Great comment, Jason. This goes along with two of the comments I made that Utahn completely ignored. If all debt, accept for buying a home or education, is bad, then it would make sense that putting someone else into debt would be bad, which is what savings and other investing does. Also, I explained that the church doesn't always explain the 'meat' of a principle to the whole church. They usually stick to the 'milk' because many people are not prepared for the 'meat'. They give general advice and counsel based on the perceived level of understanding of the membership as a whole. We should not turn our brains off and become dogmatic about any counsel, from the church or otherwise. Staying out of debt is sound advice, but, like you said, taken to an extreme, dogmatic end, it would be disasterous.
So first I pointed out how Rick Koerber changed what "debt" meant so that what he taught (having assets greater than liabilities) was not consist with the counsel from the church to "avoid debt."
So now, Jason, you are trying to say that debt is neither good nor bad. That's a change in what you are arguing. I guess Rick was wrong about what debt means, and now we are arguing about if even having debt (which should be avoided) is good or bad.
You: "If properly used, the tool can be used to construct beautiful homes; if foolishly played with, the tool can cut off arms and hurt lives. The challenge to us as Latter-day Saints is to learn the appropriate use of a wide variety of financial “tools” so that we are properly prepared when seeking the Lord’s counsel in confirming our financial decisions."
....and the counsel of what is proper use of debt is:
"With the exception of buying a home, paying for education, or making other vital investments, avoid debt and the resulting finance charges. The use of multiple credit cards significantly adds to the risk of excess debt."
-Marvin J. Ashton (from what you quoted)
You keep trying to remove any bad connotation with debt so that debt itself doesn't seem so bad.
So, for members of the church who want to following the counsel to avoid debt, "with the exception of buying a home, paying for education, or making other vital investments" they should avoid taking on any other debt.
This counsel doesn't change with more "sophisticated" investment techniques.
aaron: "If all debt, accept for buying a home or education, is bad, then it would make sense that putting someone else into debt would be bad, which is what savings and other investing does."
Uh, savings and investing do not "put someone into debt." And on another level, this is not what banks do. They do not lend deposited money. They make new loans using deposits as the reserve. It's not the same thing.
I didn't say all debt was bad. The church didn't say all debt was bad. That's putting words in my mouth and creating a strawman argument. Then you try to take this strawman argument you created and prove a point that follows. That's disingenuous, let alone faulty.
Again, you guys are trying to move away from Rock Koerber arguing things that go against church counsel (by redefining what debt is), and moving to arguing that debt is not bad. I am not arguing that all debt is bad. The counsel from the church is to "avoid" debt, and only use debt for a few things, like a modest MODEST home, and an education.
Nice try trying to change arguments.
Utahn said, "Uh, savings and investing do not 'put someone into debt.'"
You are wrong. Saving money in the bank absolutely puts the bank 'in debt' to you, according to your definition. It is an amount of money that is owed to the depositor.
Rick, Les, Ray, Garrett (both of them) have taught many times to 'think like a bank' and use the same financial principles that banks use.
Utahn: Part of the problem with arguing with FreeCaptialists is that they’ve been taught by an All-American debater. In debate tournaments, you win points be redefining things and then twisting the facts to fit your definition. What FreeCaptialists don’t realize is that this doesn’t play well in the real world where people want straight answers to straight questions – something Aaron and Jason have refused to provide. (Not doubt they’ll argue that they have provided straight answers to all of these questions buy you, I, and others on this blog aren’t “brain on” enough to understand it. I guess we’re only ready for the milk and not the meat.)
While Jason, Aaron, and others are free to redefine things however they want, I believe the best test of any group or organization is the fruits of an organization – not how they define things. No doubt there are many people who will claim that they were helped by Rick and his group. However, all these people seem to talk about the change of perspective Rick has given them on life – hence the reason they bear their testimonies all the time about the truth of Rick Koerber and the principles of prosperity. I’m still waiting to meet someone who became independently wealthy from taking classes from AFU or following the principles of prosperity. However, I have met a lot of people—including two close friends of mine – who are in worse finical shape after becoming Preferred Buyers and otherwise becoming involved with programs taught by Mr. Koerber. (One’s credit score is in the shredder and the other is about to have his home foreclosed on. Please note that my friends don’t blame anyone but themselves for getting involved with these “investments.”)
If anyone wants to post financial success stories and back them up, I’d be more than happy to listen.
re: "You keep trying to remove any bad connotation with debt so that debt itself doesn't seem so bad."
Robert F. Bohn, “I Have a Question,” Ensign, Apr. 1975,-
-"Debt is intrinsically neither good nor bad; it is amoral (neutral) because, by definition, it is only a financial “tool.”
re:"That's a change in what you are arguing. I guess Rick was wrong about what debt means,"
You are quick to accuse posters of not reading your blog, maybe you should listen to your own advise.
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