Do you only serve your fellow man because of the reward you get of feeling good or so you can ultimately receive salvation? When someone is in need, do you think to yourself, “Oh, good. Here’s a chance for me to feel good and maybe score some points towards salvation.” I think this entirely misses the point of helping other people. We should be helping other people even it we get no reward at all, not that we feel good. I know this is exactly what Koerber was calling “self-loathing” but you can serve others without hating yourself. But if you only help people because you believe that you will benefit from it, now or in the future, then if you don’t think that you will receive any benefit, you won’t offer any help. Can you imagine someone standing in from of Peter at the Pearly Gates and saying, “Oh I just helped those people so I could get into heaven. I figured it would make me a better person.” Is that how it works? How would you like to be in heaven with people who are like that?
You don’t get the good feelings from serving others unless you do it with no expectation of a benefit to yourself, now or in the future. That is the paradox. You cannot short-cut the fact that when you help others, you must do it with the right motivation in order for it to be counted unto righteousness and for you to feel the benefits. Helping, but only in order to benefit yourself, does not count unto righteousness and will not bring those good feelings of helping others that you get when you do it with no concern for any reward at all.
I don’t know how the scriptures could be any clearer about Jesus doing the will of the father and giving glory to him. I think claiming that Jesus only came to earth to suffer all things, to teach the people, to atone for the sins of the world for his own benefit is a terrible distortion of the truth and character of God. How would you like to meet Jesus and have him say, “I only suffered on the cross for my own ultimate benefit. The fact that your sins were forgiven are just a side-effect of my journey to my own happiness.” Can you imagine Jesus saying at the Council in Heaven that, “I’ll be the Savior, because then I’ll get an extremely large measure of benefit from it.” And can you imagine him saying, “Come unto me, because ultimately I will be better off because of it.”
Watch this music video and try to imagine the Savior doing everything he did because ultimately he thought it would benefit him.
This notion that we are all here for ourselves and that “selfishness” actually is the ideal moral condition has a source, and there are books that preach this. There are people who believe that man actually benefits his fellow man by only concerning himself with himself, to the point that it is only moral (in their view) to work for your own happiness, and that it is actually immoral to work for others’ happiness, unless it ultimately brings you happiness. This is the fundamental core belief of the Free Capitalist movement (listen to the radio show audio clip again if you question this). What the source is and where these idea came from will be discussed in the next post.
14 comments:
Utahn:
Thanks for the posts. Since the Activerain blog was shut down, there has not been a forum for discussion. Good thoughts- thanks for your time and efforts. Sales tactics that include flaunting nice things- quoting prophets/founders- and developing unique language to make common information more attractive- all worked well. I do not fault them for being great salesmen- just hope people use this example to help them evaluate future opportunities. Cutting past the show, quotes, and language is helpful.
anonymous, what was the Activerain blog that you mentioned?
Site for real estate related professionals- a local mortgage professional started a fraud warning blog about one year ago. It had hundreds of posts regarding many topics- mostly related to FranklinSquires in some way. It became hateful at times, but it still provided some useful perspective for those of us having to answer questions regarding the various entities.
The site administrator shut down the blog after Rick threatened to bring suit.
Are you secretly trying to get people involved with the Freecapitalist project?
I must say that you presenting Koerber's argument does not help you win people to your cause.
Truth rings though Koerber's message much more than it does yours on this one.
"Truth rings though Koerber's message much more than it does yours on this one."
Are you kidding?? We were told this exact message from a free capitalist "recruiter". Basically that message says that the Savior was not divine, was selfish, and only acted out of self-promotion.
That rings true to you??
Hmm... Why do you serve your fellow man, Utahn? If "feeling good" and "maybe scoring points with God" entirely misses the point of helping people, what is the point? What is the right motivation?
That's sad that you have to ask that, John. You serve others because you care about them and want to help them. That's it. You don't care what benefit you get from it at all. This is not the same as self-loathing or doing things for other people because you think you should. And it doesn't take anything away from you. There is no fixed pie of love or service. You don't give up anything when you help someone else, except maybe a little but of time. You become genuinely concerned about the welfare and happiness of others.
The Active Rain Blog was mine. The blog still exists sans the "Fraud Alert" post. Rick has served me with a law suit for Libel and Slander, with damages in excess of 1,000,000. Active Rain did not remove the blog, only asked me to "edit" the comments to come into line with their TOS. I do not have time to edit the ~1200 posts, nearly 180 pages of printed material, not 10% of which was about Rick, nor do I chose to repost any of it in hopes that Rick won't have to spend any more money on his lawyer on my account. My blog post was not started to call out Rick, FS or anyone else. It was to bring attention to the fact that the state of Utah had given the DRE power to prosucute "unlicensed" individuals that commit Real Estate Fraud, which makes up nearly 85% of the RE fraud in the state by some estimations.
Much like you Utahn, I do not entirely disagree with Rick, nor do I espouse his teachings. I do believe that his teachings have been "bastardized" by many, corupting what was marginally useful financial advice. They were trying to use the FS/FC names to their advantage, to add credibility to their virgining businesses.
Rick wants to be liked by everyone, he cannot stand when someone talks about him in a negative light. He has tried to remove all the negative comments about himself from the internet, maybe instead of taking all the debate classes, he should have taken PR 101 and realize that there is no such thing as bad PR. If you are being talked about, it is always a good thing.
If you want to find my Active Rain Blog, just Google my name, David Doerr, I am not hard to find.
In honor of self interest, and for my own benefit, if you need a mortgage, look me up. I am always willing to help.
Thanks,
David Doerr
@utahn
"YOU WANT..." "You CARE..." "You become concerned..."
All those statements appear to have as their end goal, the satisfaction of personal wants and desires. What does it matter that the want and desire is to help people. You still said yourself that the motivation came from meeting those wants. Yes, it's often not a conscious thought, but you still made the case that self-interest is the motivator.
That is twisting words if I have ever heard it. Good job. Muad' dib.
-- You serve others because you care about them and want to help them.
Why do you care about them and desire to help them? If securing or improving the welfare of those you care about is something you desire, how does that differ from your self-interest? Isn't fulfilling your desires part of your self-interest?
-- You don't care what benefit you get from it at all.
If you don't care what the consequences are, then why do it?
-- This is not the same as ... doing things for other people because you think you should.
Are you suggesting that you're doing things for others because you think you shouldn't do it, or possibly despite your belief that you should, or is there some other motivating cause of your behavior?
-- You become genuinely concerned about the welfare and happiness of others.
Why?
Tell ya a secret... Even if something is in another individual's self-interest, that doesn't mean it's not in your own self-interest as well. Sacrifice isn't the opposite of self-interest, it's enlightened self-interest. It's the recognition that sometimes one must give up something one values for something one values more.
Namaste,
John
Muad'Dib said:
""YOU WANT..." "You CARE..." "You become concerned..."
All those statements appear to have as their end goal, the satisfaction of personal wants and desires. What does it matter that the want and desire is to help people. You still said yourself that the motivation came from meeting those wants. Yes, it's often not a conscious thought, but you still made the case that self-interest is the motivator."
john said:
"Why do you care about them and desire to help them? If securing or improving the welfare of those you care about is something you desire, how does that differ from your self-interest? Isn't fulfilling your desires part of your self-interest?"
Interest in yourself, expecting some benefit to yourself, is different than wanting circumstances to be different. If I have a desire for a circumstance to be a particular way, the fact that I have a desire does not mean it is in my best interest or that I somehow benefit from it being different. Do you want two kids to stop fighting so you feel better? You may feel better if they stop, but is that why you want them to stop? It makes you feel bad? If you want them to stop because it makes you feel bad (not that you are concerned about the kids, ie, you have their interest in mind), then yeah, you are doing it out of self-interest.
So then I guess that if stopping two kids fighting gave you no benefit, then you wouldn't try to get them to stop. Why would you? Does you no good, right?
I don't believe the originator of a desire or will means that the only reason the originator has that desire or will because of concern the originator has for himself. Because I desire some condition does not (or at least should not) mean that I have the desire because it benefits me somehow. That would be the epitome of selfishness. That would be a person trying to shape people and everything around them to benefit themselves.
The link below describes some of the tactics used by phony real estate gurus. It is fairly long, but it hits the mark.
http://www.johntreed.com/BSchecklist.html#bs01
Why are you setting up a polarized argument? Of course you don't serve 100% for yourself. Of course you have concern for others, service builds charity. Rick is trying to illustrate the point by showing the other side. He doesn't mean that it's ONLY for you with your greedy selfish cold heart that cares nothing for those you serve.
And what is with the cheap demagoguery with the video of Christ? It's sickening you would try to use that to prove your point.
Seek first to understand before you write something with only the appearance of critical thought.
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